1 22:03:19
   2 egal
   3 while you're talking about missing faces ... there is one of them ... ;-) 
   4 22:04:12
   5 Etienne
   6 Sorry I'm late; it's mother's birthday and I'm packing for the holidays tomorrow morning... 
   7 22:04:26
   8 bdmc
   9 True.  For those of us who are here already, the Agenda is at: https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2020-07-16 
  10 22:05:23
  11 Etienne: are you going far? 
  12 22:05:41
  13 pnunn
  14 Lucky you @Etienne, no one here is allowed to go anywhere, were back in lockdown. 
  15 22:06:17
  16 bdmc
  17 As are large parts of North America ( technically!! ).  However, people are silly. 
  18 22:06:30
  19 egal
  20 here in germany we are allowed to travel ... but should keep the social distance ... 
  21 22:06:38
  22 Etienne
  23 We stay more or less at home - at my father's hunting hut in the mountains. Alone. 
  24 22:07:15
  25 egal
  26 with or without internet? 
  27 22:07:19
  28 bdmc
  29 egal: That is similar to the practice where I am. "Normal" behaviour, but wear masks and 2 m apart. 
  30 22:07:50
  31 egal
  32 bdmc: and no bigger events like musicals etc. ... i know ... 
  33 22:08:11
  34 pnunn
  35 I have to install some equipment in a data centre in Canberra next week and have to get permits to cross two state boarders... its crazy stuff for Australia. Not been like this since before 1900 when we federated. 
  36 22:08:13
  37 bdmc
  38 No sports, no concerts, no plays, no.... 
  39 22:08:16
  40 Etienne
  41 Mask for shopping in the village shop and Internet, if it is not in quarantine :-) 
  42 22:08:30
  43 egal
  44 (only bigger events allowed if "somebody special" wants to advertise himself ... ;-( 
  45 22:09:05
  46 bdmc
  47 Shall we plan on 20:10, whether we are all here or not? 
  48 22:09:24
  49 pnunn
  50 Sounds good Brian. 
  51 22:09:43
  52 * egal will then stay silent until asked ... ;-) 
  53 22:09:49
  54 bdmc
  55 B-) 
  56 22:10:36
  57 Here we go.  I hereby call the meeting of the Board of CAcert, Inc. for 16 July 2020, to order. 
  58 22:11:12
  59 Do I have a volunteer to create and manage the Minutes for this meeting? 
  60 22:12:10
  61 I have a log running, as do a couple of others, so we can get an editor later. 
  62 22:12:29
  63 Shall we try to keep this to less than six hours?  Or does anybody have a sooner deadline? 
  64 22:12:59
  65 egal
  66 2hrs ... (with a 5 min break within the next hour) 
  67 22:13:00
  68 Etienne
  69 Breakfast in New South Wales would be nice ;-) 
  70 22:13:28
  71 bdmc
  72 Two hours sounds good to me.  Perhaps less, if we can. 
  73 22:13:55
  74 Anything in either of the mailing lists that we need to discuss outside of the Agenda? 
  75 22:15:06
  76 bdmc
  77 As you notice, I am being very slow with the Agenda.  If you need the speed to change, just say so. 
  78 22:15:40
  79 Item 2.1.1 -- Arbitration Volunteers and Applicants. 
  80 22:15:49
  81 Who wants to speak to this? 
  82 22:16:10
  83 egal
  84 aehm ... what about my question about a hot-spare signer ... 
  85 22:16:43
  86 ... and moving sun1 to critical segment (as the old infra01-server is not needed for infra anymore) 
  87 22:16:47
  88 Etienne
  89 @egal: can we discuss this at 2.3.2? 
  90 22:16:58
  91 egal
  92 sure ... ;-) 
  93 22:17:00
  94 bdmc
  95 egal: I don't see those in the Agenda.  Shall we insert them into 3? 
  96 22:17:18
  97 As Etienne suggested. 
  98 22:18:44
  99 bdmc
 100 Nothing about Arbitration? 
 101 22:19:23
 102 All right.  Item 2.2.1  PayPal update. 
 103 22:19:24
 104 pnunn
 105 There have certainly been meetings since the last board meeting. I managed to get to one of them... 
 106 22:19:37
 107 bdmc
 108 Is there anybody available to talk about this? 
 109 22:20:11
 110 Sorry Peter.  Backing up.  Anything much to report? 
 111 22:20:58
 112 pnunn
 113 It was the first meeting, it was decided, from memory that several people would be approached to start looking at cases and training. 
 114 22:21:00
 115 Etienne
 116 Pypal: Not much has changed since last session. Bret is very active. He's taking a rather negative view of the situation at the moment regarding support from the authorities. Finance team is on it. 
 117 22:21:06
 118 pnunn
 119 I'm not sure what else. 
 120 22:21:16
 121 bdmc
 122 Thank you both. 
 123 22:21:36
 124 On to Item 2.2.2 -- Bank Account 
 125 22:21:46
 126 Etienne: Do you want to report anything? 
 127 22:23:16
 128 Etienne
 129 Bank account is passiv operating: you can send money. Now, the finance team is looking how to send money. (As treasurer is living abroad, this take some more time until he has all by snail mail) 
 130 22:24:38
 131 Etienne
 132 Arb: there were some video calls. FD could tell more. He has also the minutes. I followed only partly. Some people from the past are with us again. 
 133 22:24:43
 134 bdmc
 135 Is there a reasonable way to publish this information?  Perhaps the Wiki or News feed?  It won't replace the "automatic" Paypal payments, but if people know how to do this, perhaps they will. 
 136 22:25:15
 137 Etienne
 138 Yes, bank account information should be published in July 2020. 
 139 22:25:48
 140 bdmc
 141 Thank you.  Moving on. 
 142 22:25:59
 143 Item 2.3.1 -- I 
 144 22:26:07
 145 Infra+ 
 146 22:26:15
 147 egal
 148 if it has to be published on our main web site, please create a bug (and ... if possible: provide the patch) so it can be reviewed and updated by software team 
 149 22:28:23
 150 bdmc
 151 I would think two things.  First, some kind of news article advertising the existence, and secondly, something in the Wiki where people can go to get information about giving us money.  That one should already exist, and just needs modification.  What do you all think? 
 152 22:29:36
 153 pnunn
 154 Sounds fine. 
 155 22:29:53
 156 Etienne
 157 exactly, bdmc, but egal is right too, as there are PP buttons on the main website and informations about the Westpac account for Australia. 
 158 22:30:57
 159 bdmc
 160 True.  Need to cover all of the possibilities.  Are we going to completely remove PP, or just add other options? 
 161 22:31:47
 162 pnunn
 163 I guess at the moment the Westpac account is still a viable option for anyone in AU. 
 164 22:32:08
 165 Etienne
 166 Since 29.12.2019 PP is no more working until a day in a blue moon 
 167 22:32:17
 168 bdmc
 169 True.  We still have access to that account. 
 170 22:32:48
 171 So I move that we remove all references to Paypal from our website. 
 172 22:32:55
 173 pnunn
 174 Lets remove any mention of PP. They don't deserver their cut. 
 175 22:33:01
 176 seconded 
 177 22:33:24
 178 Etienne
 179 aye 
 180 22:33:24
 181 bdmc
 182 Discussion, or a call for a vote? 
 183 22:33:30
 184 pnunn
 185 aye 
 186 22:33:43
 187 bdmc
 188 I guess that we are voting.  In that case, Aye. 
 189 22:34:32
 190 I thought that "sat" was here, but perhaps not. 
 191 22:35:05
 192 So, for the members present, it passes.  Etienne, would you please add that to the Voting System? 
 193 22:35:36
 194 pnunn
 195 Speaking of voting systems.. doesn't work for me. But not a real issue. 
 196 22:35:58
 197 Etienne
 198 Allready done. For the minutes, you have to do it on your own (mail some hours ago) 
 199 22:36:17
 200 bdmc
 201 Now, moving on to Item 2.3.1 -- Infrastructure. 
 202 22:36:25
 203 Etienne
 204 @pnunn you may tell/mail me your vote and I get it in. 
 205 22:36:30
 206 egal
 207 and: please create a new bug, create a patch for this bug ... if I do so we'll not be able to get it reviewed ... ;-( 
 208 22:36:53
 209 bdmc
 210 pnunn: Yes, I had problems myself, until somebody waved their magic wand. 
 211 22:36:55
 212 pnunn
 213 Sounds good @Etienne. 
 214 22:37:51
 215 bdmc
 216 egal: I will mail myself a reminder, and try to remember how to get back into software development.  B-) 
 217 22:38:25
 218 pnunn
 219 I had a read of the email traffic about the infra from @egal. It all made sense to me, but I'm no expert in the minutia of the rules. 
 220 22:38:36
 221 → FD est entré 
 222 22:38:44
 223 bdmc
 224 FD: Welcome home! 
 225 22:38:52
 226 We are just getting into 2.3.1. 
 227 22:39:04
 228 FD
 229 Hello Brian, Hello everyone! 
 230 22:39:44
 231 Etienne
 232 Bonsoir 
 233 22:39:50
 234 bdmc
 235 2.3.1 has to do with new people.  How is that going, or do you know, egal? 
 236 22:40:11
 237 pnunn
 238 Sorry, thought we had moved to 2.3.2 :) 
 239 22:40:36
 240 bdmc
 241 We might be, unless somebody has something to say. 
 242 22:41:18
 243 egal: When do you want your five minute break? 
 244 22:42:29
 245 egal
 246 at the time FD is talking about arbitration ... ;-) 
 247 22:43:03
 248 bdmc
 249 Do you want us to go back there now, or start with items 2.3.2(a, b and c )? 
 250 22:43:32
 251 egal
 252 reagrding new volunteers: i've been in several meetings with FD and volunteers, but jandd and ales are doing the job for infra and support ... 
 253 22:43:44
 254 (me being busy most of the time ...) 
 255 22:43:46
 256 bdmc
 257 That was what I thought. 
 258 22:44:04
 259 So, let us charge forward into Item(s) 2.3.2. 
 260 22:44:24
 261 egal
 262 maybe FD is able to tell more 
 263 22:44:24
 264 bdmc
 265 Part A -- New equipment 
 266 22:44:36
 267 We will go back to that later. 
 268 22:45:30
 269 egal: Do you have a "shopping list?"  I seem to remember things in the mailing list. 
 270 22:45:46
 271 egal
 272 currently no shopping list anymore ... ;-) 
 273 22:45:48
 274 but ... 
 275 22:46:19
 276 i do have a spare R300 machine on my desk ... (the same machine as the broken signer) ... 
 277 22:46:29
 278 bdmc
 279 How did the server transfer go?  I remember seeing discussion of plans, but not about the result. 
 280 22:46:48
 281 Somebody was carrying a machine from here to there. 
 282 22:47:18
 283 egal
 284 as infra got the luxemburg-server (now: infra03) the "old" infra01 (sun1) is not necessary for infra anoymore ... 
 285 22:48:08
 286 ... as sun1 is the same hardware as sun2 has, i suggest to set up a hot-spare signer (as we're not able to access this machine remotely) ... 
 287 22:48:12
 288 bdmc
 289 egal: OK.  So we have the primary server which you repaired.  Is there a backup there? And, there is a "good" signer, and a broken one? 
 290 22:48:33
 291 egal
 292 ... and use sun1 as a cold-spare replacement for sun2 (sun2 = www.cacert.org) 
 293 22:49:09
 294 so in case of a hardware-failure we're then able to switch to the second setup without the need to travel to BIT immediately 
 295 22:49:21
 296 bdmc
 297 sun1 ( inactive ) = sun2 ( active ) = www.cacert.org. 
 298 22:49:52
 299 signer ( active ) = broken signer ( inactive ) = R300 ( needs to be built ) 
 300 22:49:55
 301 All correct? 
 302 22:50:30
 303 egal
 304 we do have the borken one (dead ... in velbert), the "april"-replacement-machine (running at BIT) and an additinal one (now on my desk in solingen) ... all are (more-or-less) identical 
 305 22:51:01
 306 bdmc
 307 egal: Do I understand that if the R300 was in BIT, you could ask the staff there to move cables in case of failure? 
 308 22:51:48
 309 egal
 310 if we use sun1 + hot-spare signer, BIT employees don't have to do anything ... ;-) 
 311 22:52:00
 312 we can switch to the second setup remotely 
 313 22:52:31
 314 bdmc
 315 Ah, I thought that you would need to physically change connections to activate the spare signer.  All the better. 
 316 22:52:53
 317 So, what do you need from us to cover this plan? 
 318 22:53:44
 319 egal
 320 a) do we want a hot-spare signer (consumes power, will raise the invoice for ~10 or 15€/month) 
 321 22:54:18
 322 b) do we want to move sun1 from infra to critical (so we have a complete backup, no matter if hot or cold spare) 
 323 22:54:29
 324 bdmc
 325 My answer to (a) is Yes, especially considering the state of the world at the moment.  I am remembering April. 
 326 22:55:21
 327 Also for (a), we have all of the other equipment powered up, so the only difference would be the "new" signer, correct? 
 328 22:56:33
 329 egal
 330 currently sun1 is powered off (to save power and therefore money), can be switched on remotely if needed 
 331 22:56:33
 332 bdmc
 333 For (b), Infrastructure already has a running replacement for "sun1," don't they? 
 334 22:57:18
 335 egal
 336 infra03 ... which is currently running 24/7 in velbert (and will be added to the rack during my next visit) 
 337 22:57:31
 338 bdmc
 339 OK, so the (a) option involves adding two machines to the power bill.  I still say yes. 
 340 22:57:49
 341 egal
 342 (a) is one machine (the signer) 
 343 22:58:14
 344 (b) sun1 can be cold-standby ... does not need to run 24/7 
 345 22:58:37
 346 (but to be moved from infra to critical segment) 
 347 22:58:42
 348 bdmc
 349 Oh, I thought that we were adding another "cacert.org" machine -- Ahhh.  I see.  Configured and ready to go, but powered down. 
 350 22:58:53
 351 egal
 352 correct 
 353 22:59:03
 354 pnunn
 355 It all works for me. 
 356 22:59:30
 357 bdmc
 358 And the backup signer would be connected to it, or both, or just the primary? 
 359 23:00:05
 360 egal
 361 current signer to sun2 (www.cacert.org), spare signer to sun1 
 362 23:00:35
 363 bdmc
 364 Thank you.  In any case, what do you need from us to make this happen? 
 365 23:01:12
 366 egal
 367 the OK to move sun1 from infra to critical segment ... ;-) 
 368 23:01:43
 369 bdmc
 370 That's all?   Do we have "approved lists" of equipment assigned to each "department? 
 371 23:02:03
 372 egal
 373 (according to our policies it can't be moved back to infra anymore ...) 
 374 23:02:23
 375 bdmc
 376 It sounds as if we have that problem covered already. 
 377 23:02:35
 378 Shall I make a motion for the Board? 
 379 23:02:47
 380 egal
 381 good idea ... ;-) 
 382 23:03:21
 383 bdmc
 384 I move that the machine designated "sun1" be reassigned from the Infrastructure Team to the Critical Team. 
 385 23:03:56
 386 Etienne
 387 second and aye 
 388 23:04:00
 389 FD
 390 Abstain 
 391 23:04:00
 392 pnunn
 393 aye 
 394 23:04:06
 395 bdmc
 396 Aye 
 397 23:04:16
 398 OK.  One down. 
 399 23:04:25
 400 Item 2.3.2 B -- CRL 
 401 23:04:35
 402 egal: You're up 
 403 23:05:23
 404 ( change my item name as needed ) 
 405 23:05:50
 406 egal
 407 CRL ... hopefully everybody has read my email regarding the CRL ... 
 408 23:06:06
 409 currently there are quite a lot download of the complete (big) CRL ... 
 410 23:06:19
 411 FD
 412 This is why I proposed to have a short call all together. 
 413 23:06:39
 414 egal
 415 we do have bugs to shrink the CRL, but these bugs require testing and reviews (after testing) 
 416 23:07:04
 417 bdmc
 418 To clarify in my own mind, this machine would serve a Read-Only copy of the CRL, and maintenance of that list would occur elsewhere, correct, or am I all wrong? 
 419 23:07:16
 420 egal
 421 as these donwloads consume most of our bandwith, it's currently limited on he server ... otherwise we wouldn't be able to serve our services ... ;-( 
 422 23:07:59
 423 the possibility to move the CRL outside of our rack will give us more bandwith for our services ... 
 424 23:08:32
 425 and: the CRL is created on our signer, therefore digitally signed ... and can't be modified ... ;-) 
 426 23:09:41
 427 egal
 428 it's only serving a static file from this server ... nothing more ... 
 429 23:09:51
 430 bdmc
 431 Because it is Read-Only and signed, it doesn't need a high-security server, for that file. 
 432 23:10:14
 433 egal
 434 correct ... 
 435 23:10:31
 436 pnunn
 437 Seems reasonable to me. 
 438 23:10:49
 439 bdmc
 440 I am ready to write the motion, but will wait for any further discussion. 
 441 23:11:12
 442 egal
 443 (however: it should be under control of critical team as the private key for crl.cacert.org should be the same on all CRL-servers) 
 444 23:11:17
 445 (there can be more than only one) 
 446 23:11:27
 447 pnunn
 448 I assume this is a one way process @egal. 
 449 23:11:31
 450 bdmc
 451 That was how I was going to write the motion. 
 452 23:12:00
 453 FD
 454 For over 3000€/year, we should ne able to bargain with BIT a higher bitrate than the existing 20/20Mbps. I would recommend to go that way first, upgrading our IP transit at no cost. I am ready to start talking with BIT on that. 
 455 23:12:22
 456 Wouldn't be a way to solve the CRL/OSCP issue? 
 457 23:12:31
 458 bdmc
 459 Yes, the file is prepared on the signer, and can be delivered from anywhere. 
 460 23:13:04
 461 pnunn
 462 Do you have concerns with moving this @FD? 
 463 23:13:38
 464 FD
 465 My concern is not a matter of security, but rather adding yet another piece of complexity 
 466 23:13:51
 467 At the moment, we have everything at BIT 
 468 23:14:01
 469 It is easy to communicate on that 
 470 23:14:09
 471 pnunn
 472 Fair point. 
 473 23:14:12
 474 bdmc
 475 Doesn't Infrastructure have "outside" machines? 
 476 23:14:19
 477 FD
 478 People outsoide of CAcert are not always too much techy 
 479 23:14:36
 480 So, for them, everything is hosted in a secured data center. 
 481 23:14:47
 482 An easy image to understand. 
 483 23:15:16
 484 As I do believe IP transit cost nearly nothing by nowdays, 
 485 23:15:19
 486 egal
 487 @FD 3 of 4 nameservers are outside of our rack ... 
 488 23:15:31
 489 bdmc
 490 FD: and what about this is not that?  Just because we move outside of a particular rack in BIT, why is this not a secured data centre? 
 491 23:15:48
 492 egal
 493 monitoring is done from outside ... 
 494 23:16:47
 495 FD
 496 I just say: the CRL/OSCP functions are percived by the public as belonging to our core business 
 497 23:17:26
 498 From the point of view of our image, it is easy to explain that we have them hosted in the same data center then everything else. 
 499 23:17:31
 500 My to cents. 
 501 23:18:05
 502 pnunn
 503 @FD is correct about the transit costs, I've just had mine doubled at no cost last week. If that is the problem, perhaps that is worth asking. 
 504 23:18:21
 505 FD
 506 Thank you, Peter, 
 507 23:18:26
 508 egal
 509 it's the possiblity to move crl.cacert.org outside ... not a "must" ... ;-) 
 510 23:18:30
 511 FD
 512 this is my very point, nothing more. 
 513 23:19:21
 514 pnunn
 515 Is it worth pursuing FD's suggestion first... I guess if they say no we can always circle back to this? 
 516 23:19:31
 517 FD
 518 Especially when paying over 3000€ per year for hosting 
 519 23:19:39
 520 pnunn
 521 And more bandwidth is always a good thing :) 
 522 23:19:57
 523 FD
 524 I am happy to have been understood. :-) 
 525 23:20:32
 526  I am ready to start talking with BIT on that. 
 527 23:20:39
 528 However, officially, Secure-U owns the contract with BIT, not CAcert. I am a member of CAcert, no a member of Secure-U. But I could at least initiate the business talk, make an appendix to the contract to be prepare, then let the Secure-U official representative to sign it. 
 529 23:21:22
 530 bdmc
 531 FD: Does Secure-U want you to do this? 
 532 23:21:39
 533 pnunn
 534 Has to be worth a shot. Would that atleast mitigate the problem @egal? 
 535 23:22:25
 536 egal
 537 FD: we're unsure, how much traffic it really consumes ... if we double the speed, it could be used completely, too ... as the CRL is quite big currenly 
 538 23:22:42
 539 FD
 540 @Brian: I am happy with Secure-U driving the talks alone. Just proposed to help in the matter. 
 541 23:23:16
 542 bdmc
 543 I guess that what I was asking was whether Secure-U has any interest in such a conversation. 
 544 23:24:22
 545 egal
 546 FD: let's discuss the secure-u details via TG ... 
 547 23:24:44
 548 FD
 549 Fine with me. 
 550 23:24:54
 551 Etienne
 552 I mean, we could give it a try. If there is more bandwidth and it's still not enough, we'll outsource that and use the bandwidth for the rest of our services. 
 553 23:25:08
 554 pnunn
 555 I agree Etienne. 
 556 23:25:20
 557 FD
 558 I agree Etienne, too. 
 559 23:25:25
 560 bdmc
 561 OK.  So no motion at the moment.  Perhaps one at the next meeting. 
 562 23:26:13
 563 FD: Before you were able to get here, we flew past Agenda Item 2.1.1 -- Arbitration.  Would you like to talk on that, now? 
 564 23:26:38
 565 FD
 566 This is a very difficult, very entangled matter. 
 567 23:27:27
 568 On the 8th of July if I recall right, we have been able to gather most of the still alive arbitrators. 
 569 23:27:45
 570 Mario was there, Philipp too, Andreas did not come. 
 571 23:28:22
 572 All the others went (Lambert, Bernhardt, Ian Alastair). Etienne joined too. 
 573 23:28:39
 574 Dirk participated as well. 
 575 23:28:43
 576 But... 
 577 23:28:59
 578 the output was not easy to read. 
 579 23:29:44
 580 Here are the live minutes which we wrote at the time: https://kabendzie.ellis.siteparc.fr/s/3SL4bodDmoMFLdm 
 581 23:30:45
 582 FD
 583 According to the minutes, it it not obvious what are the practical useful output of the meeting. 
 584 23:31:08
 585 At least, most of the arbitrators took an action point to be done. 
 586 23:31:39
 587 I failed to make an efficient synthesis of the talk. 
 588 23:33:02
 589 FD
 590 I ask Dirk and Etienne for help at making that short report more understandable, as they were there too. 
 591 23:33:32
 592 pnunn
 593 Has anything happened on the temporary relaxation of the current road blocks (or is this what we are discussing)? 
 594 23:34:11
 595 FD
 596 I am not sure about it. 
 597 23:34:54
 598 Philipp acheived to convince everybody that there were no actually blocking blocks on the road, whatever he had ruled in the past 
 599 23:35:18
 600 pnunn
 601 OK that's confusing. 
 602 23:36:31
 603 FD
 604 because with the common law, it is enough to do it "around" the rule, and this is ok if nobody challenges your decision. So basically, Bernhard could start again to act as an Arbitrator, whatever the "two heads of power" ruling of Philipp said against that. 
 605 23:37:06
 606 bdmc
 607 I don't remember that being how we operated in the past. 
 608 23:37:37
 609 pnunn
 610 But didn't the board ask that that the Arbitrators look at putting aside that ruling for a time anyway? 
 611 23:37:54
 612 bdmc
 613 Exactly 
 614 23:38:10
 615 FD
 616 And we, the Committee, could start to make new comers work into the team, eaven if they do not have their background been checked by Arbitration yet, because the circumstances explain our decision, and as nobody will challenge our decision, it will be good under the common law. 
 617 23:38:11
 618 pnunn
 619 Who needs to make that decision? I understand its not the board. 
 620 23:38:39
 621 Oh.. OK. Se we didn't need the ruling anyway? 
 622 23:38:50
 623 Sorry, the motion to ask. 
 624 23:39:36
 625 FD
 626 Basically, according to Philipp, nobody needs to make a "green light" decision. It is enough to decide to do it, without previous permission. If nobody attacks our decision later, we were right to have done like that, whatever it might have been. 
 627 23:39:52
 628 Etienne
 629 At the moment (until a ruling) we have both: Dunkel's recommendation on how we can act in his opinion. And the two pending cases at Arb - still open how they decide. 
 630 23:40:19
 631 bdmc
 632 But that would be "interfering in the operations and independence of Arbitration." 
 633 23:40:31
 634 Etienne
 635 But Dunkel has also clearly pointed out that in such cases this should be well justified. 
 636 23:41:05
 637 pnunn
 638 and I guess if anyone decided to object, then everything comes to a complete halt again.. that sounds dangerous. 
 639 23:41:40
 640 FD
 641 Philipp's logic is all about: act first with as much common sense you can have, ask for permission later (i.e. if nobody disputes your past decision, you are good, you are permitted to have done it). 
 642 23:42:44
 643 pnunn
 644 If everyone is acting in "good faith" there should be no issues I guess, but that assumes everyone involved in CACert is of that mind set... hmm.. 
 645 23:42:45
 646 Etienne
 647 This is Dunkel's view. We'll see who takes the two cases and how he decides. 
 648 23:43:14
 649 FD
 650 So, most of us were quite confused by the logic, this is why the output of the meeting kept unclear. 
 651 23:43:47
 652 pnunn
 653 I see what you mean @FD. So do we just wait for the ruling or not? 
 654 23:44:29
 655 FD
 656 I have not a bare idea. I got lost at the end of the meeting, with the deep feeling that my IQ had dropped under 100. 
 657 23:44:42
 658 pnunn
 659 :) 
 660 23:45:01
 661 bdmc
 662 FD: Shall I move on, and let you recover? 
 663 23:45:27
 664 Etienne
 665 If we have good arguments for clear needs, we can bend the rules in advance, says Dunkel. 
 666 23:45:53
 667 If I understood him well. 
 668 23:45:56
 669 bdmc
 670 There are others in this organisation that would disagree with that idea. 
 671 23:46:04
 672 Etienne
 673 :-) 
 674 23:46:14
 675 pnunn
 676 Certainly some recently past ones I feel. 
 677 23:47:21
 678 pnunn
 679 And I guess that's the danger. If one of them decides to pop up again and throws in a hand grenade, were back a square one with cases that can't be handled. 
 680 23:47:28
 681 FD
 682 Yes, you are right, Etienne. I understood the same. Philipp wanting to become the General Attorney of CAcert, i.e. the person that advice the Committee about how much it can realistically "bend the rules", without going outlaw. 
 683 23:47:32
 684 bdmc
 685 OK.  Shall we move on, and come back to this next meeting.  We have a few items left on the Agenda.  Does anybody have anything that they want to get to, or shall we talk about the AGM? 
 686 23:47:35
 687 pnunn
 688 Surely a clear relaxation of the rules first would be a better thing. 
 689 23:47:48
 690 bdmc
 691 pnunn: I completely agree. 
 692 23:47:58
 693 pnunn
 694 Sorry Brian... move on. 
 695 23:48:24
 696 FD
 697 pnunn: you are very right. 
 698 23:49:07
 699 bdmc
 700 Item 2.4.2 -- AGM Date 
 701 23:49:20
 702 FD
 703 In fact, Philipp has been a kind of Jesus for us, showing us a light we did not think before it could exist. 
 704 23:49:51
 705 bdmc
 706 Are we prepared to choose a more definite date --- Sorry.  I guess that we will stay with Arbitration for a while longer. 
 707 23:50:11
 708 pnunn
 709 I'm done Brian. 
 710 23:51:13
 711 FD
 712 Nothing to add, let's go ahead, Brian. 
 713 23:51:58
 714 bdmc
 715 Last meeting, we said that we should hold the AGM in November.  Do we want to get more definite today, or wait? 
 716 23:52:49
 717 FD
 718 For instance, let's choose the 4th of November. 
 719 23:53:08
 720 it is a Wednesday. 
 721 23:53:21
 722 A strong argument. 
 723 23:54:12
 724 pnunn
 725 Just out of interest, do we need/want to have any of these rulings about relaxation of the rules done and presented to the AGM or is that not an issue we want to put out in that forum? 
 726 23:54:13
 727 bdmc
 728 As I remember, we have tended to hold that meeting on a Saturday, so that people all over the world who work during the week, can attend. 
 729 23:54:42
 730 pnunn:  I don't think that that applies there, but.... 
 731 23:54:55
 732 pnunn
 733 It may be poking the bear I guess.. just a question, no opinion. 
 734 23:55:53
 735 The weekend probably works better for the global audience. 
 736 23:56:03
 737 FD
 738 Of course, you are right 
 739 23:57:05
 740 pnunn
 741 So I guess the 7th? 
 742 23:57:12
 743 If my math is correct? 
 744 23:57:49
 745 FD
 746 Perfect. 
 747 23:58:13
 748 pnunn
 749 Amazing.. got it right this early in the morning, might be a good day :) 
 750 23:58:38
 751 bdmc
 752 Any other offers? 
 753 23:58:39
 754 Going once.... 
 755 23:59:22
 756 Going twice...... 
 757 00:00:35
 758 egal
 759 for the AGM ... don't forget to ask for team reports in time ... teamleads need time to compile these reports 
 760 00:00:42
 761 bdmc
 762 I move that the 2020 Annual General Meeting of CAcert, Inc. be held on Saturday, 7 November 2020, at 20:00 UTC. 
 763 00:00:56
 764 pnunn
 765 seconded and aye 
 766 00:01:03
 767 bdmc
 768 egal: Exactly.  One week before, or earlier? 
 769 00:01:14
 770 FD
 771 I vote yes, too. 
 772 00:01:16
 773 egal
 774 20:00 UTC? ... everybody familiar with it? ... don't forget, that it's the winter time 
 775 00:01:26
 776 bdmc: asking NOW ... ;-) 
 777 00:01:45
 778 bdmc
 779 Yes, being Saturday, we could make it earlier, except for Australia. 
 780 00:01:47
 781 Etienne
 782 aye 
 783 00:01:52
 784 pnunn
 785 Date has been set, no reason to not ask now. 
 786 00:01:58
 787 egal
 788 (team reports cover the financial year ... means july to june ...) 
 789 00:02:03
 790 bdmc
 791 egal: Oh, yes.  I was talking about their deadline. 
 792 00:02:29
 793 Incidentally, Aye. 
 794 00:02:48
 795 FD
 796 https://www.worldtimeserver.com/meeting-planner-times.aspx?&L0=US-NC&Day=7&Mon=11&Y=2020&L1=CH&L2=AU... 
 797 00:02:52
 798 bdmc
 799 egal: Motion, or just a directive? 
 800 00:03:11
 801 egal
 802 no motion needed to ask for team reports ... 
 803 00:03:22
 804 bdmc
 805 That's what I thought, just checking. 
 806 00:04:05
 807 egal
 808 (but one of you should be in charge to get reports from the teams ... and don't forget to write team reports for the teams board is TL of ... ;-) ) 
 809 00:04:25
 810 bdmc
 811 Etienne: Please contact all Team Leads, on behalf of the Board ( Committee ), and request that their Annual Reports be in your hands by ( whenever you want them ). 
 812 00:04:55
 813 egal
 814 either in his hands ... or added directly to the wiki ... 
 815 00:05:07
 816 bdmc
 817 Etienne: Or would you prefer that one of the rest of us manage that? 
 818 00:05:39
 819 Etienne
 820 no, no, that is ok 
 821 00:06:05
 822 bdmc
 823 Well, we have five minutes before we go over our two hours. 
 824 00:06:06
 825 Etienne
 826 I am the secretary, because I cannot programming and similar stuff. 
 827 00:07:09
 828 pnunn
 829 Anyone can program Etienne, Microsoft prove that every day. 
 830 00:07:22
 831 bdmc
 832 Anything anybody wants to bring up, any questions, or should we move on to the date of the next meeting? 
 833 00:07:30
 834 FD
 835 Yes, if I may. 
 836 00:07:49
 837 A few words about our next grant application at the RIPE NCC. 
 838 00:08:02
 839 Traditionally, the windows for submitting it takes place in August. 
 840 00:08:12
 841 We got well prepared to submit it in an efficient way, because of the work we did on it past year, whom part of it can be easily reused. And because of the briefing we got from Nuno later in the year. 
 842 00:08:27
 843 Who would like to work on it with me? Basically, we are talking about a few dozen thousand euros of subsidies, for helping us at putting our Software Development at work. 
 844 00:08:58
 845 bdmc
 846 FD: You beat me to it.  I was going to suggest a sub-committee. 
 847 00:09:06
 848 I will be happy to join you. 
 849 00:09:18
 850 pnunn
 851 If I can be of any assistance. 
 852 00:09:31
 853 FD
 854 Yes Peter, with great pleasure 
 855 00:10:05
 856 We should expect the work to take at least 2x half a day of cooperative work. 
 857 00:10:15
 858 pnunn
 859 Sounds fine. 
 860 00:10:23
 861 FD
 862 2x 3~4hours 
 863 00:10:23
 864 pnunn
 865 So three of us? 
 866 00:10:58
 867 FD
 868 I wanted to involve Bernhardt, too. What team is he the leader, btw? 
 869 00:11:21
 870 egal
 871 education 
 872 00:11:27
 873 FD
 874 Education? 
 875 00:11:36
 876 What is that? 
 877 00:12:23
 878 pnunn
 879 Something we all do from home these days apparently. 
 880 00:13:05
 881 egal
 882 he is "master or CATS" ... ;-) 
 883 00:13:20
 884 (btw ... we do have a list of TLs in our wiki ... ;-) ) 
 885 00:13:51
 886 FD
 887 Oh, thank you, I know I should browse the wiki more often. 
 888 00:13:58
 889 bdmc
 890 FD: First session this weekend, or later? 
 891 00:14:05
 892 FD
 893 Well, I am going to share with you on Kabendzie a template of the RIPE NCC grant application form, preloaded with our answers from past year. 
 894 00:14:09
 895  We will have to: 
 896 00:14:59
 897  - choose the topic (for instance, developing an integration between Open Authentification and CAcert, an idea of Dirk) 
 898 00:15:16
 899  - work a lot on the milestones to do it; 
 900 00:16:20
 901 FD
 902  - work a lot on the key perfomance indicators. They have to be convinced that we thought about the project enough to see in reflected in relevant KPI. 
 903 00:16:52
 904 Brian, I am at your disposal in the week-end. 
 905 00:16:57
 906 Peter? 
 907 00:17:44
 908 pnunn
 909 Its going to be cold and wet here all weekend, and I'm in lockdown, so whatever works for you. 
 910 00:18:15
 911 bdmc
 912 Saturday evening for FD, Sunday morning for you, Peter? 
 913 00:18:24
 914 pnunn
 915 Sure. 
 916 00:18:31
 917 FD
 918 https://www.worldtimeserver.com/meeting-planner-times.aspx?&L0=US-NC&Day=18&Mon=7&Y=2020&L1=CH&L2=AU... 
 919 00:18:57
 920 bdmc
 921 pnunn: You wouldn't want it much earlier, though, would you? 
 922 00:18:58
 923 FD
 924 Guys, it means 23:00 for me. I won't be fresh. 
 925 00:19:23
 926 pnunn
 927 Happy to make it night my time if that works better. 
 928 00:19:23
 929 bdmc
 930 Oh.  You have moved East, have you. 
 931 00:19:26
 932 FD
 933 I would prefer 12:00 UTC, i.e 7:00 AM for you Brian :-) 
 934 00:19:44
 935 bdmc
 936 If that translates well for Peter, fine with me. 
 937 00:20:12
 938 pnunn
 939 Not sure what that works out too.. 
 940 00:20:27
 941 Yeh, 9pm that's fine. 
 942 00:20:42
 943 FD
 944 will be 21:00 for Peter. I can adjust as must as you want, but another time will make it too earlier for you Brian. 
 945 00:20:59
 946 pnunn
 947 That works for me. 
 948 00:21:14
 949 FD
 950 12:00 on Saterday, rigthÉ 
 951 00:21:19
 952 ? 
 953 00:21:28
 954 Again: 
 955 00:21:46
 956 12:00 UTC on Saturday, right? 
 957 00:21:51
 958 bdmc
 959 Count me in.  Noon Saturday UTC. 
 960 00:21:57
 961 pnunn
 962 Done. 
 963 00:21:58
 964 FD
 965 Very good. 
 966 00:22:11
 967 I am going to send you the hyperlinks. 
 968 00:22:21
 969 bdmc
 970 Well, we have dragged this meeting on far too long.  Next meeting -- Early August, Late July? 
 971 00:22:48
 972 pnunn
 973 August for me, late July is going to be busy. 
 974 00:23:08
 975 FD
 976 If we win a subsidy at the RIPE NCC, it would be a so good news for CAcert! 
 977 00:23:12
 978 bdmc
 979 Any other votes? 
 980 00:24:12
 981 First Thursday in August? 
 982 00:24:25
 983 pnunn
 984 OK. 
 985 00:24:34
 986 FD
 987 May we avoid the first week of August? I am with the children on vacation, i.e busy and lacking sleep. :-) 
 988 00:24:55
 989 bdmc
 990 One for and one against.  Second Thursday? 
 991 00:25:06
 992 pnunn
 993 Any August is good for me. 
 994 00:25:18
 995 FD
 996 Second Thursday is fine with me. 
 997 00:25:30
 998 bdmc
 999 Two for.  Etienne? 
1000 00:25:44
1001 Etienne
1002 6 or 13 ist ok 
1003 00:25:53
1004 FD
1005 Thursday the 13th, right? 
1006 00:26:02
1007 Etienne
1008 yes 
1009 00:26:29
1010 bdmc
1011 All right.  Since there don't seem to be any other votes, please set the second Thursday in August at 20:00 UTC for the next meeting, Etienne. 
1012 00:27:10
1013 Etienne
1014 ok 
1015 00:27:11
1016 FD
1017 Thank you. 
1018 00:27:15
1019 bdmc
1020 And with that, I would like to declare this meeting adjourned. 
1021 00:27:16
1022 Etienne
1023 Do not forget to have a look at Policy group & vote for the minutes of the last meeting. 
1024 00:27:31
1025 bdmc
1026 Good night all. 
1027 00:27:52
1028 Have a good day, Peter.  Got any good books, or computers to play with? 
1029 00:28:02
1030 Etienne
1031 enjoy your breakfast pnunn, good night others 
1032 00:28:07
1033 pnunn
1034 Good morning all, enjoy the holiday @Etienne. Talk soon bdmc and FD. 
1035 00:28:15
1036 I must remember to lay off the red before our meeting :) 
1037 00:28:25
1038 FD
1039 Bye Peter, goodbye everybody. 
1040 00:30:18
1041 FD
1042 Who is copy-pasting the log of the meeting to the Wiki. I cannot, I do not have the first 40mn. 
1043 00:30:31
1044 ← bdmc a quitté (Quit: leaving) 
1045 00:31:02
1046 Etienne
1047 FD, i will do it 
1048 00:31:37
1049 FD
1050 Thank you. A bientôt Etienne. 
1051 00:32:03
1052 ← FD est parti du salon (Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 
1053 
1054 13 Utilisateurs
1055 
1056     decay
1057     egal
1058     enyc
1059     Etienne
1060     FredericG
1061     jandd
1062     LambertHofstra
1063     MitchMaifeld
1064     nemunaire
1065     pnunn
1066     sat
1067     ynazarov
1068     zerkalo
1069