1 Conversation with #board-meeting at Sat 03 Dec 2016 13:24:14 CET on
   2 dops@irc.cacert.org (irc)
   3 
   4 (13:24:14) The topic for #board-meeting is: Boardmeeting
   5 (13:24:14) Topic for #board-meeting set by FelixDoerre!felix@dogcraft.de at
   6 20:59:58 on 2016-04-09
   7 (13:57:45) katzazi [eva@x59cc87ab.dyn.telefonica.de] entered the room.
   8 (14:00:04) egal: hi, hello and welcome ...
   9 (14:00:36) dops1: Hi all
  10 (14:00:42) iang [iang@cpe-24-211-228-171.nc.res.rr.com] entered the room.
  11 (14:00:56) egal: good morning, ian ...
  12 (14:01:15) iang: good morning… still working on coffee here
  13 (14:01:19) egal: hopefull your coffee was good enough ... ;-)
  14 (14:01:29) egal: (okay ... is ... ;-) )
  15 (14:01:32) iang: it’s as yet to do its job
  16 (14:01:46) egal: let's start ... i don't have too much time today ...
  17 ,-(
  18 (14:02:03) iang: oh ok . do we have a quorum?
  19 (14:02:25) dops1: yes
  20 (14:02:36) iang: Hi @dops1 super
  21 (14:02:42) iang: Open the meeting then!
  22 (14:03:45) iang: (still looking for agenda …)
  23 (14:03:54) iang: OK do we have Minutes from last meeting or any others?
  24 (14:04:19) dops1: I uploaded the transcript to https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/
  25 CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2016-11-27
  26 (14:04:55) iang: And, who is making the minutes of this meeting. OK, cool.
  27 (14:05:03) dops1: As usual :-)
  28 (14:05:28) iang: Can we get the transcripts upoloaded for all the meetings that
  29 are missing accepted minutes?
  30 (14:06:01) dops1: Sure, that's possible (if we all consider it as not too
  31 personal)
  32 (14:06:08) iang: ok, so no Minutes,just the transcript. Fine.
  33 (14:06:12) egal: hopefully both of my machine have the complete logs ... ;-)
  34 (14:06:21) dops1: I have them all...
  35 (14:06:33) egal: perfect
  36 (14:07:02) iang: Great. Any business on Private in last week?
  37 (14:07:35) dops1: no, nothing other than preparing resolutions for the AGM.
  38 That is published via the mailing lists.
  39 (14:08:00) dops1: (at least the results, and it is only 1 list)
  40 (14:08:17) iang: ok cool. my browser is being difficult again about these
  41 sites.
  42 (14:08:19) egal: hm ... do mails sent to DRO count, too?
  43 (14:08:49) iang: I’d say so, yes. We can at least note that several discussions
  44 took place with board-as-DRO.
  45 (14:09:32) iang: Including one new dispute being filed for conflict of
  46 interest. Which I’d like to add to agenda as late business.
  47 (14:09:33) egal: (there were some mails to dro ... but during the week i ran
  48 totally out of time to read them in detail ... ;-( )
  49 (14:09:41) iang: me too
  50 (14:10:24) iang: Ok. Actions from last meeting?
  51 (14:10:57) dops1: I think all actions are still on the agenda.
  52 (14:11:16) dops1: Ah ok, not the size limit of the mailing list!
  53 (14:12:08) iang: I emailed out on that point to mailing list admin. I don’t
  54 recall a reply.
  55 (14:12:18) iang: I couldn’t find any switch in the admin site
  56 (14:13:03) dops1: Me neither, and also didn't see a reply.
  57 (14:13:37) iang: ok. So it’s an action to chase.
  58 (14:14:08) iang: OK to business.
  59 (14:14:32) iang: 1. Personal matters by dirk… not sure about this. Does this
  60 mean Personnel matters?
  61 (14:14:43) iang: As in matters relating to the people in the association?
  62 (14:15:07) iang: Personal matters ==> private matters
  63 (14:15:20) egal: last week we had in question time the status os some members
  64 questionized ...
  65 (14:15:32) iang: Personnel matters ==> human resources, etc
  66 (14:15:50) iang: Ah the latter, good.
  67 (14:16:15) egal: in a former meeting (before our time) two members were
  68 accepted, but two others were not released(?) from Inc.
  69 (14:16:18) dops1: The members who are reported as resigned in the older minutes
  70 had to be identified.
  71 (14:16:23) dops1: Did we?
  72 (14:16:33) iang: Good question.
  73 (14:16:38) egal: one of them seems to be sebastian ...
  74 (14:16:52) iang: Has anyone gone through the minutes of the times?
  75 (14:17:50) egal: (let me switch to the other machine ... ;-) ... this one
  76 looses characters after resume from suspend ... ;-( )
  77 (14:18:36) egal: ah ... much better here ... ;-)
  78 (14:18:43) iang: that was … not one of those with “complete logs” ?
  79 (14:19:06) iang: I have no email from Sebastian indicating resignation, on a
  80 quick search
  81 (14:20:20) dops1: It is from a time of the last board, source was the minutes
  82 from 2016-01-10 . On the list of the secretary I found Wytze resigning weeks
  83 before.
  84 (14:20:35) iang: -------- Forwarded Message --------
  85 (14:20:35) iang: Subject: m20160604.4 - Resignation of Ulrich Schroeter and
  86 Sebastian Kueppers
  87 (14:20:36) iang: Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:51:22 +0000 (GMT)
  88 (14:20:37) iang: Resignation of Ulrich Schroeter and Sebastian Kueppers
  89 (14:20:38) iang: Resolved, that we accept the resignations of Ulrich and
  90 Sebastian and thank them for their many years of service!
  91 (14:21:03) iang: Yes I recall Wytze resigned from association.
  92 (14:21:30) egal: MM (secretary in december last year) brough this topic up on
  93 board-private on 2015-12-23 ...
  94 (14:21:45) egal: wasn't this motion for being A ?
  95 (14:22:03) iang: Yes I think it was for roles - but that motion does not
  96 identify the roles :(
  97 (14:24:38) egal: okay ... how to continue?
  98 (14:25:04) iang: has the transcript of the meeting been checked?
  99 (14:25:24) egal: i just checked the board-private-mails)
 100 (14:25:41) egal: (and motions before april this year)
 101 (14:26:08) iang: 77 11:24 <ReinhardM> 2.1.2 two members resigned their
 102 membership
 103 (14:26:09) iang: 78 11:24 <ReinhardM> this is an information for all
 104 (14:26:11) iang: :-o
 105 (14:26:21) iang: what on earth does that mean?
 106 (14:27:43) iang: OK.
 107 (14:28:03) iang: How about the board motions at the time? I can’t see the
 108 motions on my browsers.
 109 (14:29:12) egal: sebastians resignation was sent to support -- and forwarded to
 110 board-private by stefan (according to a note in support)
 111 (14:30:15) dops1: In OpenERP Wytze, Sebastian, Doris, Lambert and Nathan are
 112 logged for year 2015.
 113 (14:30:33) dops1: (motion tool is sloooooooow)
 114 (14:31:21) iang: Not in that meeting. m20160110.1 and .2 are the new members,
 115 there is no motion for acceptance of the resignation ..
 116 (14:32:06) iang: @dops1 logged as resigning from association?
 117 (14:32:41) egal: i just checked the motions before the sgm ... nothing found
 118 for the last boards time for sebastian an wytze
 119 (14:33:17) katzazi: Hi
 120 (14:33:47) dops1: ? where?
 121 (14:33:51) egal: (need to remember myself to export thmotions since then ... ;
 122 -) )
 123 (14:35:10) katzazi: I asked that question and did not find something neither
 124 (14:35:10) iang: OK. At this stage it looks like the resignations were not
 125 processed. Still, the first part is to identify the two names that resigned.
 126 (14:35:16) egal: shall we do a motion to accept their resignation (since it was
 127 not done by the last board?)
 128 (14:35:18) dops1: Aha, that was a question, not a statement that I am logged as
 129 something... Yes, it's the membership end date set to 2015-12-31
 130 (14:36:03) iang: I’m not sure we can accept a resignation without having the
 131 resignation to hand, and knowing who it was from … :)
 132 (14:36:10) egal: haeh? ... to a middle of the finacial year?
 133 (14:36:21) iang: And given the elapsed time we should probably check with the
 134 person whether it’s still current / expected.
 135 (14:37:06) iang: What evidence do we have that one of them was Sebastien?
 136 (14:37:27) egal: mail sent to support? ;-)
 137 (14:37:53) iang: Huh. OK. Can we forward that to board-private at least?
 138 (14:38:11) iang: I’m not sure the assoc relies on email to support in the
 139 general case … :(
 140 (14:38:50) katzazi: It requires mails to secretary for this, but possibly you
 141 could accept regardless if there is no comments fluctuations involved
 142 (14:39:05) katzazi: *conflict
 143 (14:39:12) iang: right. So it probably needs to be checked out regardless.
 144 (14:39:15) egal: okay ... i&apos;ll contact him ...
 145 (14:39:29) iang: super. So we have a mystery as to who the second person is?
 146 (14:40:00) egal: i assume, wytze ... (as far as i read the comments from dops)
 147 (14:40:09) egal: shall i contact him, too?
 148 (14:40:26) dops1: IMO it should be sufficient to check the list for secretary,
 149 and after that ignore that. Could be written on error...
 150 (14:40:26) katzazi: Wytze send something to secretary and members
 151 (14:40:48) katzazi: That he qut membership
 152 (14:41:14) iang: ok, that would have been in 2015 I suspect … and I don’t have
 153 those emails on this machine. Gotta play with backups.
 154 (14:42:15) iang: OK. Let’s leave this item on the agenda and move on.
 155 (14:42:19) egal: if it&apos;s in board/boardprivate we can use the
 156 lists-archive .. ;-)
 157 (14:42:23) katzazi: Around change of year
 158 (14:42:56) iang: 2. AGM preparation by Dirk - Financial report ready?
 159 (14:43:02) iang: How’s it going, Mr T?
 160 (14:45:52) iang: @dops1 any update on the financial report?
 161 (14:46:05) dops1: There are no major changes since Sunday. I didn't have much
 162 time. I'll continue after the meeting.
 163 (14:46:33) iang: OK. Board report - I can’t report any progress on it.
 164 (14:47:08) iang: Other reports - I’ve not seen much. We may be blocked on
 165 getting the pages up and going on the wiki.
 166 (14:47:58) dops1: Could we ask our collegues whether they can help?
 167 (14:48:05) iang: ofc
 168 (14:48:30) GuKKDevel: Wytze: https://lists.cacert.org/wws/arc/cacert-members/
 169 2015-12/msg00028.html
 170 (14:49:28) iang: well spotted! Wytze’s resignation.
 171 (14:50:08) iang: OK - is there any motion to accept that … I only have emails
 172 from 2016–01-01 on my current machine.
 173 (14:50:45) iang: @egal, could you add Wytze to your contacts on this point?
 174 (14:50:56) egal: sure
 175 (14:51:31) iang: Back to item 2. I might have some time after this meeting,
 176 will review the pages to see what’s there.
 177 (14:51:48) katzazi: *sigh* not my Job and I am on vacation, but I can try to
 178 setup agm page
 179 (14:51:51) iang: 2.4. Payments for members done?
 180 (14:52:24) katzazi: But not today I&apos;m at a medieval event whole day
 181 (14:52:49) dops1: no, will follow after the financial report.
 182 (14:52:53) iang: I’m not sure I follow this one … is this about whether the
 183 members are in good standing?
 184 (14:52:59) iang: OK.
 185 (14:53:18) dops1: I understand that the are to be informed about missing
 186 payments or the opposite.
 187 (14:53:33) katzazi: Iang: I don&apos;t know how to pay without a link and I am
 188 asked to pay for multiple members
 189 (14:53:43) iang: @katzazi medieval events do not normally include computers…
 190 (14:53:48) katzazi: Dops we need the link
 191 (14:54:10) katzazi: Iang that&apos;s why I have to hide myself at the moment
 192 (14:54:25) katzazi: And only am on mobile
 193 (14:54:29) iang: Ah. So, actually as the issue of payments is pressing … this
 194 might be something to do earlier.
 195 (14:54:54) iang: @katzazi … medieval events have lots of places to hide ..
 196 torture chambers are good for that job
 197 (14:54:56) dops1: @katzazi: A link pe se is not possible. Paypal needs a HTTP
 198 POST request. To be trusted it would be required to place it on a CAcert
 199 server.
 200 (14:55:22) katzazi: So far I always got a link from treasurer for payment
 201 (14:55:40) katzazi: The last one also send links to some of us
 202 (14:55:45) iang: ah ok. Is it possible to use the last one?
 203 (14:55:50) katzazi: No
 204 (14:56:00) dops1: Probably a link to a page with a "link", that's different.
 205 (14:56:04) katzazi: Only works one time
 206 (14:56:18) iang: Ahhhhhh…… cunning. But annoying now.
 207 (14:56:22) katzazi: No it was a personalised link for payment
 208 (14:56:40) iang: Is it something generated from the Paypal account logged in?
 209 (14:56:45) katzazi: Or something ... not on my machine either
 210 (14:56:59) katzazi: Possibly but from CAcert side
 211 (14:58:07) katzazi: Dops can I call you via Skype tomorrow, so we can try to
 212 figure this out?
 213 (14:58:23) iang: good idea
 214 (14:58:26) katzazi: A so that one of us could inform other members with same
 215 issue?
 216 (14:58:57) dops1: I checked my last email , indeed there is a link.
 217 (15:00:01) iang: OK … how about you two take it offline?
 218 (15:00:43) dops1: I think that this is a working sample.
 219 (15:01:12) dops1: Didn't find information about that at other places.
 220 (15:02:01) LuziusQ [smuxi@p5B02D802.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] entered the room.
 221 (15:02:44) katzazi: Dops can we figure this out tomorrow?
 222 (15:02:51) iang: yes better
 223 (15:03:07) dops1: @katzazi: yes
 224 (15:03:43) iang: Good. With the general remark that people will probably need
 225 some notice time to get paid up...
 226 (15:03:56) egal: as long as you give us an update via mail afterwards it&apos;s
 227 okay .. ;-)
 228 (15:04:18) iang: OK. Moving on.
 229 (15:04:26) katzazi: ... you want more mails from me???
 230 (15:04:41) iang: DRO issues. Now, the first issue here is that Eva has tendered
 231 a resignation as Arbitrator.
 232 (15:04:51) katzazi: No not dro issue
 233 (15:04:59) dops1: FYI Paypal is documented here: https://www.paypal.com/us/
 234 webapps/mpp/email-invoice
 235 (15:05:02) katzazi: Dro has no say there
 236 (15:05:22) katzazi: It&apos;s board
 237 (15:05:26) iang: I for my part would suggest we be cautious about accepting the
 238 resignation.
 239 (15:05:39) iang: Speaking as the board, on this issue.
 240 (15:05:49) iang: We as Board would want to be careful.
 241 (15:06:06) iang: @dops1 @egal what are your thoughts here.
 242 (15:06:39) katzazi: Have you reasons?
 243 (15:06:50) iang: Have I reasons for what?
 244 (15:06:58) egal: as there were a lot of mails from her in the last days ... and
 245 i had no time to read them in detail ... i cannot do a wise decision NOW ... ;-
 246 (
 247 (15:07:14) katzazi: For being cautious about accepting
 248 (15:07:37) iang: Indeed I also have concern that in order to figure out the
 249 situation, it is necessary to read a lot.
 250 (15:08:04) iang: Also, for my part it is unclear whether (a) resigning as Arb
 251 for new cases or (b) resigning as Arb in existing cases and handover is
 252 required.
 253 (15:08:40) katzazi: Both. I asked for organising handover
 254 (15:08:47) iang: As a practical question only. I think if it is (a) then this
 255 is a matter that doesn’t need urgent consideration as Eva can simply not accept
 256 any new cases.
 257 (15:09:14) iang: OK (b). Is more complicated. As we don’t have too many active
 258 arbitrators.
 259 (15:09:30) iang: Another practical question - how many cases are we talking
 260 about ? How many as arb, how many as CM?
 261 (15:09:44) katzazi: I did not resign for cm
 262 (15:10:05) iang: aha. OK, how many active running cases as Arb?
 263 (15:10:34) katzazi: I believe less than ten ad arb and two of them are ruled,
 264 as far as I remember, can give exact number berserk later
 265 (15:10:41) iang: OK.
 266 (15:10:54) iang: @dops1 any comments?
 267 (15:11:43) dops1: The result is that there is almost no power left in
 268 arbitration.
 269 (15:12:04) dops1: So CAcert has another area where we can't move forward.
 270 (15:12:10) iang: well, no fully active arbitrators until perhaps Piet comes up.
 271 (15:12:34) dops1: But it doesn't help to not accept a resignation.
 272 (15:12:34) katzazi: He probably would resign as well :-(
 273 (15:12:35) iang: Right, Arbitration was the one of the few areas that was under
 274 some control.
 275 (15:12:45) iang: ha! Because it is too quick for him?
 276 (15:13:02) katzazi: What is too quick?
 277 (15:13:10) iang: well - why would he resign as well?
 278 (15:13:36) iang: I’m guessing because the pace of too many new cases or
 279 handovers would be overwhelming
 280 (15:14:03) katzazi: I am not sure. I explained him my reasons. He either agrees
 281 with them or does not want to be in arbitration without me for other reasons
 282 (15:14:13) katzazi: Probably
 283 (15:14:21) iang: ah. this is a good point.
 284 (15:14:30) iang: I wonder if he can explain to us your reasons?
 285 (15:14:58) katzazi: Maybe. I explained them to you twice, and to ian in even
 286 another mail
 287 (15:15:25) katzazi: I can explain them here as well
 288 (15:15:29) dops1: As arbitration is essential for our operation and was already
 289 working in emergency mode, we should think about redefining the quality of
 290 service CAcert can currently give. Software is another critical part.
 291 (15:15:41) iang: I’m not doubting that … what I’m thinking about is how to
 292 refine a lot of information down to the key parts
 293 (15:15:43) dops1: Just thinking...
 294 (15:15:56) iang: @dops1 I agree with that
 295 (15:16:45) katzazi: The crucial point is the nature of cases that are allowed
 296 against arbitrators, contrary to DRP 3.5
 297 (15:17:45) katzazi: Arbitrators are tried to be made more liable than other
 298 members, while promised reduced liability
 299 (15:18:26) iang: OK. They should, yes. The system won’t work if the persons of
 300 the arbitrators can be harrassed as persons.
 301 (15:18:42) katzazi: Everybody makes mistakes now and again, it&apos;s now too
 302 dangerous to do rulings in current situation
 303 (15:18:43) iang: This is a basic fundamental principle of society and the law.
 304 (15:19:32) katzazi: One just cannot be sure to not do a mistake in the future
 305 (15:19:39) iang: Well, mistakes are built into the system - this is why we have
 306 appeal and we also have open disclosure of the rulings. Appeal is a hard
 307 feedback loop over mistakes and disclosure is a soft feedback loop.
 308 (15:20:11) iang: Mistakes are accepted. It is part of the responsibility of
 309 being an Arbitrator. A mistake is just absorbed into the machine.
 310 (15:21:03) iang: There is no requirement not to make mistakes. And, the only
 311 issue with a mistake should be that an appeal is possible. Currently, that is
 312 how DRP is written, as far as I can tell.
 313 (15:21:12) katzazi: As it is one has to face cases where the relief is to
 314 renounce rulings publicly and to declare to have acted unfaitly
 315 (15:21:50) katzazi: But that is not how cases seem to be accepted
 316 (15:22:09) iang: Well ok. So if there is an appeal, it is indeed permitted
 317 under the writings of “egregious, unconscionable, etc” I forget the writings
 318 right now. So in a sense, “unfair” is part of that.
 319 (15:22:30) katzazi: Any arbitrator now has to face a situation where one may
 320 not do any mistake anymore at all
 321 (15:22:45) iang: That is *not* how the system should work.
 322 (15:23:05) katzazi: But appeal is about fixing wrong using not about punishing
 323 arbitrator
 324 (15:23:05) dops1: We have some appeals. I feel that the knod as result by past
 325 disputes (in every sense) could not be resolved with more people not involved
 326 and conflicted.
 327 (15:23:23) iang: However, the system should allow some control over the
 328 mistakes because a mistake will also have people who suffer from that
 329 situation.
 330 (15:23:35) dops1: The appeals must be checked, maybe rejected or accepted.
 331 (15:23:42) katzazi: All arbs are somehow conflicted already at least partly
 332 (15:24:09) katzazi: Sure, but for rulings it&apos;s only intentional breach of
 333 duty
 334 (15:24:11) iang: Yes. Everyone is conflicted because we have too few. I think
 335 just claiming conflict of interest is not a particularly interresting cause.
 336 (15:24:14) katzazi: And i&apos;,
 337 (15:24:19) dops1: As some senior skills are required, maybe the only way out is
 338 to get some old arbitrators to help out - at least for appeals.
 339 (15:24:28) katzazi: I&apos;m all in for it leading to punishment
 340 (15:24:46) iang: Yes … so this is where we need to discuss anther point - how
 341 to start moving on the appeals.
 342 (15:24:48) katzazi: Dops there are none
 343 (15:25:08) katzazi: I wrote some suggestions on those appeals
 344 (15:25:24) katzazi: Suggestion is to allow appeal as check on ruling
 345 (15:25:25) iang: There is currently ONE appeal only that has gone through its
 346 review by an arbitrator and has been permitted to move to the appeal panel.
 347 (15:25:41) iang: (from memory) … so the question arises - how do we stand up a
 348 panel of appeal?
 349 (15:25:51) katzazi: If this is successful allow relief against arbitrator as
 350 second case
 351 (15:26:05) egal: hm ... the question seems to be: is it allowed to appeal a
 352 ruling only or to appeal against the arbitrator ...
 353 (15:26:22) iang: You can’t appeal against an arbitrator.
 354 (15:26:28) iang: Only against a ruling.
 355 (15:26:42) katzazi: Iang: dro stated that dro selects senior arb as chair and
 356 dro and chair select the other two
 357 (15:26:54) iang: In the past?
 358 (15:26:59) katzazi: Then reject whole appeals
 359 (15:27:01) iang: Or was that DRO as this board?
 360 (15:27:07) katzazi: Alex
 361 (15:27:18) katzazi: Was dro
 362 (15:27:25) iang: Ah ok. Excellent so we have prior work to guide us. Good.
 363 (15:27:46) katzazi: He selected ted as chair for that appeal but ted is officer
 364 so not available at the moment
 365 (15:28:02) katzazi: ..... it was in the mails to yiu
 366 (15:28:26) iang: AHa. Good. So we can hunt around for someone else. THanks.
 367 Right now, it could be one of : Philipp, Alex, Lambert. Would there be any
 368 other suggestions?
 369 (15:28:40) katzazi: I
 370 (15:28:44) katzazi: Ugh
 371 (15:28:57) iang: It’s those medieval keyboards, I know … :P
 372 (15:28:58) katzazi: Lambert would be chair as it is about seniorty
 373 (15:29:15) katzazi: Seniority
 374 (15:29:35) iang: Hmmm… Did Alex say that? I would say that we shouldn’t get too
 375 hung up on imperialist notions of seniority and royalty....
 376 (15:29:41) katzazi: Yes
 377 (15:29:51) katzazi: It&apos;s part of his rule
 378 (15:30:14) katzazi: Do I never will be chair for quite some while even if I
 379 remain arbitrator
 380 (15:30:14) iang: aha can you forward his ruling to us?
 381 (15:30:24) katzazi: Look up arb lessions
 382 (15:30:48) iang: A rule or a ruling? If it is just DRO writes a rule … then we
 383 can change that. If it’s a ruling from a case, that’s … more challenging
 384 (15:30:51) katzazi: It&apos;s 80 and 81 or something
 385 (15:31:09) katzazi: Procedure set by dro according to drp
 386 (15:31:22) iang: OK, thanks.
 387 (15:31:33) katzazi: As far as I remember, but check his case as well
 388 (15:32:00) katzazi: Well there is the other point with board as dro
 389 (15:32:22) katzazi: Arbitrators were asked to propose an alternative
 390 (15:32:47) katzazi: There was not as much activity. While mentioned more than
 391 once
 392 (15:33:23) iang: What is Ted officer of?
 393 (15:33:45) katzazi: Ian was only one who was mentioned as candidate, no
 394 objections. One comment that could be seen as yes, after ian drops out of
 395 board.
 396 (15:34:43) katzazi: Education and he does not give that up for time being, he
 397 does not want to decide which area he continues for time being according to
 398 dirk
 399 (15:34:56) iang: So … on this issue of the appeal …
 400 (15:35:51) iang: https://wiki.cacert.org/Arbitrations/Training/Lesson71
 401 (15:36:08) katzazi: I believe current discussions show that dro as board is too
 402 cumbersome
 403 (15:36:40) katzazi: Yes, that lession
 404 (15:37:04) iang: sure. But you want to change our fine egalitarian democratic
 405 principled DRO as board into the unforgiving juggernaut of me as DRO. I’m not
 406 sure that’s a good idea....
 407 (15:37:41) iang: OK that page is in draft, and we can readily change that.
 408 (15:37:49) katzazi: Yes I want DRO to be able to do something and board as well
 409 ... arbs can speak up
 410 (15:38:41) katzazi: And to have both less directly conflicted
 411 (15:39:02) iang: ok … let’s move on. SO, let’s think about the Appeal - we have
 412 the Lesson71 above.
 413 (15:39:16) iang: Let’s consider the resignation by Eva… with a view to solving
 414 the issues first.
 415 (15:39:32) katzazi: I actually believe that an unforgiving juggernaut would be
 416 a good one for dro looking at the cases out there
 417 (15:39:39) egal: about moving on ... i&apos;m slowly running out of time for
 418 today ... ;-(
 419 (15:39:41) iang: I do not believe we’ll find the answers today.
 420 (15:40:00) iang: But we’ve made some progress.
 421 (15:40:22) iang: Right. Move on. Thanks @katzazi …. Back to your medieval
 422 thing.
 423 (15:40:43) iang: 4. AO status - by board ?
 424 (15:40:54) iang: Is this … who can be AO and sort this out?
 425 (15:41:12) katzazi: ... better to stay here for that as well, as it comes from
 426 a ruling of mine ....
 427 (15:41:48) iang: Ah. Send some notifications, or not.
 428 (15:42:41) katzazi: No giving you time, it&apos;s not as urgent and I thought
 429 last time you said that it should be done after agm
 430 (15:43:27) iang: Deferred until after AGM is wnat @dops1 said last time - shall
 431 we do that?
 432 (15:44:01) iang: My view has already been made up … We don’t notify, the
 433 assurances are good. But we can defer this … let’s just get it recorded on the
 434 Minutes as that topic - deferred until after the AGM
 435 (15:44:46) iang: Any objections? Defer? If not, moving on.
 436 (15:44:59) iang: 5. Old board report.
 437 (15:45:01) dops1: Let's remember last problems - were that questions about the
 438 minimum requirements for ATE?
 439 (15:45:17) katzazi: Ok, then I&apos;ll move back in time
 440 (15:45:19) dops1: Let's defer it anyway...
 441 (15:45:19) iang: No movement that I know of.
 442 (15:45:44) iang: Bye… you should also remember to watch that old movie
 443 Westworld
 444 (15:45:49) iang: perils of medieval events….
 445 (15:46:24) iang: And moving on again. 6. Status of Move of CAcert - again no
 446 news there.
 447 (15:46:48) iang: Although there was an email on that, suggesting that the Swiss
 448 possibility is easier than first thought? But little more.
 449 (15:48:16) egal: westworld i don&apos;t have on my vdr .. but futurewolrd ... ;
 450 -)
 451 (15:48:52) iang: OK …. Question time.
 452 (15:49:05) egal: next meeting? ;-)
 453 (15:49:09) iang: Any questions? We’re in with a chance of a 2 hour meeting...
 454 (15:49:30) iang: Yes let’s ….. How about we call another meeting next week. And
 455 have another go at solving this Arb/DRO/issue.
 456 (15:49:55) iang: I would suggest you call ameeting every weekend until AGM….
 457 but that’s just me, medieval cruelty is my specialty
 458 (15:50:05) dops1: Fine so far. Do we have a chance to prepare/sort the material
 459 in advance?
 460 (15:50:20) egal: either saturday morning "ians time" for around 90 inutes ...
 461 (15:50:36) iang: which material @dops1
 462 (15:50:59) dops1: situation and demands about Arb/DRO/issue
 463 (15:51:06) egal: ... or sunday ... (an hour or two later than today)
 464 (15:51:24) iang: Ah. Well the material in the sense of Eva’s mails is there …
 465 gotta read through it tho
 466 (15:51:28) dops1: Sunday fits also
 467 (15:51:37) iang: Up to you guys.
 468 (15:51:48) iang: I think I prefer Sunday.
 469 (15:52:32) egal: same time as today? ... so we have a chance to get a "vin
 470 chaud" after the meeting .. ;-)
 471 (15:52:41) dops1: ok
 472 (15:52:51) iang: OK - looking forward to your call ..
 473 (15:53:01) iang: I declare the meeting closed.
 474 (15:53:10) iang: Super - @dops1 you’ll upload the transcript?
 475 (15:53:21) egal: work for us for the next week: read the mails ... ;-)
 476 (15:53:22) dops1: I'll do
 477 (15:53:27) iang: Actions, yes.
 478 (15:53:30) egal: (and ... write reports ... ;-) )
 479 (15:53:38) iang: And AGM reports…… ;-)
 480 (15:54:03) dops1: I know I know
 481 (15:54:14) egal: work for me: send final AGM-invitation until tomorrow evening
 482 ... ;-)
 483 (15:55:08) egal: (you know, that we were not able to keep 20 UTC due to the
 484 incoming mails? .. i had to move it to 20:30 UTC ...
 485 (15:56:10) egal: okay ... time to leave for today ... thanks to everybody for
 486 attending the meeting ... cu ...
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